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Podcast 23 | Do Less, Sell More with Bob Heilig Part 2: Social Selling vs Network Marketing, Doing More than One Company and Growing Without Social Media

23 | Do Less, Sell More with Bob Heilig Part 2: Social Selling vs Network Marketing, Doing More than One Company and Growing Without Social Media

Hi guys. And welcome back to the Scale Without Social podcast. If you haven’t had a chance to check out episode 22, the previous episode, where I share an interview with my mentor, Bob Heilig. Who you’ve probably heard of, if not, he is one of the most incredible network marketing coaches out there through his, Your Vitrual Upline podcast, as well as his Love, Serve, Grow program and community.

And last week we talked about a lot of things. It’s a little bit of a longer episode, but it’s really some great foundational principles for anyone looking to grow your business on or offline. And today it’s a little bit of a quicker episode where I get to ask Bob some burning questions.

Some of which we have already talked about on this podcast, but I was really anxious and excited to get his thoughts on things like, social selling versus network marketing. Or should you do more than one network marketing company? Or what does it look like to try to masquerade your network marketing company as an affiliate program?

And we really touch more on the basis and the framework of creating transformational relationships and conversations with your customers, regardless of where you choose to show up in your business. So I think you guys are going to love this episode. I cannot wait for you to hear Bob’s answer to some of these, kind of tough questions.

And as always, let me know what you think over in the Scale Without Social for female entrepreneurs, Telegram group. You can find it by texting the word podcast to 912-405-8912. Let’s get into it!

Heather: Well, Bob, I would love to shift back into the conversation around selling and the buzzword of social selling. And I’m kind of using air quotes with that because it’s definitely you know, an industry buzzword, if you will.

And I know you and I have talked about the fact that I feel there is a little bit of a difference between the social selling principles of growing and building a following versus the traditional network marketing principles. And I love what you shared with me on how social selling is a facet. Kind of like we talked about that marketing, but tell me your thoughts on the word social selling and what you’re seeing in the industry and how it’s shifting into that a little bit.

Bob: Yeah. I mean, to me, it’s, it’s kind of an oxymoron in a, in a sense that the way that most people read it is it’s not actually selling it’s social marketing, right? Like content creation, is marketing, it’s not sales. Selling is a conversation. So what’s interesting to me is somebody will call themself a social seller.

They’ll put almost all of their time, energy and focus into learning how to market, and then wonder why they’re not actually making sales. Or you have that relatively small percentage of people, I would say it’s probably no more than 5%. That just by the nature maybe of what they’ve done before or who they are, they can market their way to personal results and success.

What they don’t realize, it’s because they actually know how to sell. But the problem is this, just the mindset of social selling, a lot of times can lead people to personal results, but not actually building a real sustainable business. Because see, being a transactional mindset, almost all of the effort and attention is put on the front end, getting somebody to buy and say, yes.

Attraction marketing and social selling is it’s very transactional. It’s like what? It’s, it’s a very calculated. Even the people that are not posting about their business that are not being like that salesy and that straightforward. They’re still thinking about in a very calculated way. How do I create content that gets somebody to say yes. But it happens at the expense of what happens after somebody buys.

See being transformational, what you realize is that the key is you must create an, an experience for people after they buy. You must put an equal, if not greater amount of focus on, it’s almost like, like I said to you early, I don’t serve to get them to buy. I serve once they buy. It’s like, I’m doing this with you.

The, at the core of it, Heather is a problem. Without a problem there is no transformational sale.

You can get people to transactionally buy because of a price, a discount, a promotion. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re gonna be willing to do the work or that they’re the real kind of customer that you want. Because if there’s not the seed of some sort of a problem or area of dissatisfaction that they have in their life, the likelihood of them having the intrinsic motivation to actually do the work, to take the products, to get the result, is low.

So when we think about selling transformationally, what we do is we spend time really trying to have a conversation with someone to uncover a need. It doesn’t mean that we don’t do marketing. It does like that, you’ve gotta market. I mean, it’s an incredible tool. But you’re thinking as much on what happens after.

Do I have the systems in place? Am I leading them the way that I need to lead them?

That’s really where the goal becomes almost not just getting them to join. It’s getting them to get the result that they came there for. And so as we start to think, like, you know, social media, if we think of like a puzzle of what it takes to build a sustainable business. That actually impacts and changes people’s lives, not just your own. Social media is one piece of that puzzle. It’s not the whole puzzle like a lot of people think.

So what we help coach people through is, how do you actually start adopting more of that transformational approach to what you do? So you can start growing a team and start impacting and helping other people.

Like a leader is not defined by their results, they’re defined by other people’s results. So how do we get off the treadmill of content creation and influencing and recruiting. Cuz everybody recruited last month, quit and didn’t do anything. How do we actually start focusing on that piece? And here’s an interesting statistic. Forget where the study was done, but what they found was that just a 5% increase in retention, can result in an additional 25 to 60% in revenue for a company.

So think about that. Just become 5% better at getting people to stay. At getting customers to continue buying. Over time, that can result in a 25 to a 60% increase in your pay.

Now this is very relevant in our business right now, because like what everything I’m talking to about, we literally just started teaching this stuff like six months ago. It’s like crazy how things evolve. But with this new program, Love, Serve, Grow that we’ve created. The mindset that I have is of, of being transformational. And our sole focus right now is how do we create an experience for our clients that absolutely blows them away and literally makes it hard for them to not do what we teach and get the results that they want.

Almost everybody in our space, and even in the you know, in the social selling network marketing space, all of the thought is how do I get the next person to buy? You don’t build a sustainable business focusing just on sales and marketing. Retention is the piece where sustainability comes from.

And there’s lots of different things you have to do in that area. It’s high touch. It takes work. It forces us to grow as a leader. But I find it’s the most rewarding part of what you do, right? Wouldn’t you say that even far more than any of the money you’ve ever made, like knowing that you impacted someone’s life in a meaningful way. Like that is there’s nothing that can even come close to that.

Heather: Absolutely. Oh my goodness. You could not have said it better. And that has definitely been my experience. Is that when you can take that focus off on having your own personal success. And I think that so often that influencer sphere online can for a few, which I totally did a recent podcast episode, Bob, talking about the same principle that about five to 10% can do it beautifully. Might even be less, I think you’re right. Like, yeah.

Bob: I think we’re being generous.

Heather: Yeah. Yeah. I do too. Exactly. You know, and then maybe 5 to 10% of people, you know, don’t wanna be on social media at all, for whatever reason, a personal conviction or, you know, just a, a decision that aligns with them.

But I think most people, you know, 80%, 90% maybe. You know, are, the things that you teach, that’s exactly what can serve them and growing their business without having to show up as an online influencer. So one of the things I did wanna ask you about, and this is a little bit of a tough question, because it’s, it is talking about the shift in the industry is I’m seeing a lot of companies that are focused on that affiliate style marketing that a traditional influencer would use to build her business and working, partnering with multiple companies.

But at its core, these affiliate programs really are network marketing programs. And so I’m seeing leaders, some having big success, I’m seeing people dive into doing multiple companies. Because of this affiliate and social selling aspect. Which then sometimes duplicates down to their team in a way that doesn’t serve them.

So I would love for you to touch on that. If you don’t mind, just to get your thoughts

Bob: I have no problem speaking. I mean, I have a very strong opinion about that. I think it goes back into what we’ve talked about already. Is it possible for people to do that? Yeah, but those are the same, let’s call it like, it is probably one to 2% of people that are in this world, in this space.

If you’ve got a really large following, and you are successful, personally successful in a company. You could easily add on another company and become personally successful in that company. Now here’s where I’d like to maybe present a little bit of a different line of thinking.

Just because somebody is a great seller and a top performer and producer, does not, in my book that doesn’t make them a leader. So I think you gotta be really careful who you call a leader. Because when you call someone a leader, there’s also a certain set of expectations that comes along with that. And so I say that because to me, those people are not really leaders. Because when I, when I define leadership, I don’t look at what they can do, I look at what they’ve helped other people do.

And what I have found is it is, you and I were talking about this earlier, it is hard enough to build a business that changes people’s lives in a real way in one company. Much less two or three. So look, if your only goal, and look, I’m not knocking you if this is what, like, if you’re just out to monetize your efforts and following on social media in as many ways as you want, then have at it, there’s no judgment here.

I mean, it’s, you build the kind of business you want. But don’t try to trick others into thinking that this is a viable strategy for long term business growth. It’s not, the companies will always wind up cannibalizing one another.

Because, just think about it from this perspective, most people won’t be able to do it, right? So you’re setting them up for failure. But then even if they start to do it, eventually, if I’m on your team and you’re doing two or three things, there’s gonna be a point in time where I’m like, well, Heather, if this is so great, why do you have to do the other things?

Now if part of your message is, well, Bob, you should do it too. Shame on you because most people can’t do what you do. So you just set me up for failure. So look, I don’t knock people that do it. I understand why companies wanna market their program in that way, cuz they’re catering to a very specific person in their messaging. But for the, for the masses of people, for the average person, it’s hard enough for them to build one company, much less multiple ones.

So I just, I never recommend it. And I just say, look, find somewhere where you can plant your flag. You believe in the company, you believe in the mission, you love the products. It has a fair compensation plan and you, you’ve got good leadership and you go to work. It’s like the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, until we realize we hop over the fence and we realize we still have to mow the lawn.

It’s like, I just find very rarely the company, the upline, they’re 9 out of 10 times they’re not the problem, it’s the person. And so I think sometimes you gotta look at yourself in the mirror and just say, okay, I need to start doing something differently. So I mean, that, that’s the way that I see it. And that’s the way I think about it.

Heather: Wow. Well, I’m glad that we are definitely aligned in that, in that mindset. And I definitely see it harm a lot of the businesses when people try to duplicate that decision down and I’m with you. I don’t, I don’t knock. I have some friends that do it well personally, but I think it’s when they try to expect the same results from the team or from the masses, that it just, it falls short.

Bob: What I found is eventually they choose one company over the other. Because one’s, just think about it, why would you do a second? Because the first one’s not as profitable as you would’ve hoped. So you want to add on a second. Eventually one becomes more than the other and they just choose. The only scenario where , I have seen it work on some level for people is if they choose a completely non-competing product and their primary goal is only to retail and sell the product, right?

So they have one company. This is where I build my team. I haven’t seen many, like, really great people do that, but I’ve seen some people do that. But in my experience, most of the time, I always wind up just, just choosing one other thing. So if that’s the case why even bother?

Heather: Well, and I think it does create confusion. I know I used to partner with a company called L’ange, that’s a, a true affiliate program, a hair company. That did create some personal results for me, but it created a lot of confusion on my team because people associated it as if I was doing another network marketing company, even though I couldn’t recruit somebody for it.

So I even stopped. I pulled, I was making, I mean, tens of thousands. I mean, actually I think I even made like a hundred thousand, anyway. I made a lot of money doing it. I let it go because I did not like the feelings that it created from my team that felt like my focus wasn’t in the one, the right place. So I’m, I’m so glad for you to hit that head on.

Bob: So, so that’s a perfect example of being, having a transactional mindset. Which look, it’s not like it’s not always a bad thing. But a transactional mindset is always, it’s gonna be your results. And the problem is, is transactional thinking, and transactional strategies are very rarely sustainable long term because they require you doing the work, putting in the effort. That’s a grind.

Transformational thinking, you’re thinking more long term. What do I, it’s not like, how do I just become successful? How do I help other people become successful? Because that’s the way you create sustainability. If it’s just you doing the work, they’ll never be freedom. But if you can empower others to do the work, if you can tap into the power of leverage, help other people. That’s where we begin to experience the freedom that we want.

And once again, what are, what’s your value? Is your value just money? Okay, great, I don’t judge. If you value something different, you have to really look at the way, the manner in which you’re building your business.

Heather: I love it. Well, Bob, the last thing I’d love for you to touch on is for someone who might be on the total opposite end of that spectrum. And does want to just completely delete Instagram or Facebook from their lives and focus on the more traditional belly to belly, if you will, methods of, of network marketing or social selling. Which I guess wouldn’t be social selling without social, right?

But what would be some advice, in your experience, given that you have built businesses in that method? What advice would you have for them to still create those conversations and opportunities to have that experience for their customer?

Bob: Yeah. So I, I guess the first thing that I would wanna understand is why do they not wanna do social media?

If it’s like something that they like morally feel kind of led to do, or it’s really a values and belief thing for them. Okay. I’m not gonna challenge that. Cuz that’s what we’re talking about right? But I found that there’s a greater percentage of people when they say that it’s not that. It’s just some sort of a resistance around the manner in which they would need to use social media for their business because they’re thinking transactionally. Right?

I don’t wanna put myself out there. It’s like it’s driven by fear kind of. And so I would wanna challenge somebody in that sense. Because the thing that we must recognize is social media can be an incredibly powerful tool to impact people.

And so what’s interesting is, in my experience, those types of people, they may start, like, I would see people that would start that way. Or maybe they had social media and they’re like, I’m not using it. And like 30 days in they’re like, yeah, okay, I’m gonna start using it. Right. So it was really just more of an objection almost in their mind.

But let’s just assume it’s somebody that from a just values standpoint, I don’t wanna do it.

Well, guess what? You still are allowed to call people in the world we live in today. You can still text people in the world we live in today. You can still like, you know, thank God we’re we can go see people again now. Right? Like all of these other methods, like ways to build a business are still available to us.

Now, granted, I get it. You know, culturally we’ve shifted in the way we communicate with one another. But we can hop on a zoom together like this and have a conversation. So I think it, it takes resourcefulness in terms of how we do it. But this also brings into like coming full circle, the skill of selling.

When I first got started, we had to learn how to sell. Cause marketing wasn’t a thing. Like if I, the only way I got you to sign up, I was on phone with you. I was face to face with you. Like I had to refine my skill of sales. People get lazy now cuz they can market it, make themself into thinking if I just post, that someday I’m just gonna have a great – it doesn’t work that way.

So I, in some ways could see it as an advantage to people because it forces them to focus on the things that are gonna lead them to the results. But I think all these other ways that we can, like they’re still available to all of us. And I think if we can learn, it’s it, you know, the needle swung so far to the marketing side of things.

If we can learn how to start to do a better job of marrying these two worlds together, high tech and high touch. Online and offline. That’s where the real magic happens is being able to find a balance of those two things.

Heather: Wow. Yes. That is the answer. I’m so excited to be a part of the conversation with how we can, we can do that. And you know, really, I know rising tides raise all ships and so I’m just, I’m so thankful.

So tell me where people can go to find out more information about Love, Serve, Grow and more of the principles that you teach that we’ve talked about today.

Bob: Yeah, so Love, Serve, Grow is a brand new program of ours. We just launched it about three months ago. I’m very excited about it. It’s the first time we’ve launched a new program in, in years.

And to me, it is really everything we’ve been talking about today is represented in this program. I really see Love, Serve, Grow is, it’s much bigger than a program. It’s an idea. It’s a concept. It’s a, it’s a radically different way of building a network marketing or social selling business. I see it as a movement.

I really believe that it’s gonna change the way people think about what we do. We teach, you know, anti hustle, not for the sake of going slow and not working, but building a values aligned business. And we teach transformational selling. And so all of the core components that I think people need today are in there.

But we’re working really hard at making it stand out in terms of the kind of experience that we create for people. We’re facilitating accountability groups, we’re doing high touch with coaching and we’re, we haven’t even begun to roll in all the things that we’re gonna be doing over the rest of the year.

But because to me, the days of making and selling an online course are over. Online courses are very transactional. Like, let me put all this in effort into creating these videos and then package it. Just keep selling it to people that will never use it. Yeah. Like consumption of online courses is at an all time low.

Wow. People don’t need information. They need something different. They need connection. They need accountability. They need support. It’s, I mean that this is, this is what transformational is about. And this is like, you know, there’s such a parallel because this is what all of you that are listening, this is what you should aspire to in your business.

Creating an incredible experience when somebody comes into your world. So that’s what we are really looking to do. And, but if you’re interested in, in learning a little bit more about the program, just go to All the information is there. And I’m happy to answer any questions if you check it out, and you wanna message me on Instagram. Happy to answer any questions that you have.

Heather: Wow. Well, I know my team is absolutely loving it. And once again, that’s probably been one of the most fulfilling aspects for me. Is now it’s not just me that’s benefiting from the fruit of the wisdom that I’ve learned from you over the years. But now my team are having the results from what they’re learning in Love, Serve, Grow and it’s just, it’s, it’s really cool to watch.

So, again, I could not be more thankful for you, Bob, and everything that you’ve taught me. It’s, it’s just made such a difference. And I feel like I can truly say that I’ve got that total freedom now that you talked about. And I’m, I’m thankful for that. So thank you for your wisdom and your time.

And can’t wait to continue the conversation with you.

Bob: Yeah. Thank you for having me, Heather. This has been awesome.

Heather: Yay.

Okay. Wow. You guys. I seriously, still cannot even believe that I had the opportunity to ask Bob all of these incredibly insightful questions. And as always the answers that he gave were straight, pure gold. So I hope that you enjoyed this interview and this podcast, and I’m so grateful that Bob has offered to share this message on his podcast as well over on the, Your Virtual Upline podcast.

So if you haven’t already checked out his podcast, definitely give it a listen because there is just, I mean, wisdom for days in there. And I cannot recommend enough both his podcast, which is free, and his love serve grow program, for those of you guys who are looking to kind of step up your game and your business. So let me know, as I mentioned at the very beginning of this episode, if you have thoughts or questions or comments hop on over to Telegram, where we have the Scale Without Social for female entrepreneurs.

A little group where you can, you know, again, ask me anything. Pop in there and chat about it. You can also text the word podcast 2 912-405-8912. To get a little bit more information. Thank you guys for listening and have a great week!

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I help busy mamas simplify their makeup routine + entrepreneurs scale their business without being a slave to social media.

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